Talk:Order of the Arrow
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 | This subarticle is kept separate from the main article, Boy Scouts of America, due to size or style considerations. |
 | Styles: This is an article about Scouting America. In addition to standard style guides, the Language of Scouting is also used. |
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Q1: Are the ceremonies a secret?
A1: No, the Boy Scouts of America now describe their ceremonies as "safeguarded", which they define very differently. In the past, Arrowmen were admonished to keep these details secret, but in the 1980s, the BSA introduced new Youth Protection program policies which include:
The BSA has made clear that any legitimately concerned person may view videos of ceremonies, attend meetings, or read scripts upon request to assure themselves that there is nothing objectionable. Such persons are asked to safeguard the details relating to ceremonies for the sake of the participants.
Much information is now publicly available from the BSA; for example, information on the Ordeal induction is available on the BSA website and in other BSA publications.
Q2: What if I want to add content that is considered to be safeguarded?
A2: Safeguarded material should not be added to the article simply to shock or disrupt. All content must add value to the article regardless of its status as well as meeting the standards of verifiability and notability. Discussion of potentially objectionable content should not focus on whether or not it is safeguarded, but on whether it is appropriate to include in the article. Q3: Are the official publications secret?
A3: No. The BSA will sell The Order of the Arrow Handbook to anyone, although some council Scout Shops may still believe it is a restricted item. Current and old versions of the handbook are readily available elsewhere. When adding content, care must be taken to use the current versions of publications. Q4: Can I publish the passwords to protected content?
A4: No. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act prohibits the act of circumventing any access control. The English Wikipedia operates under the laws of the United States and the state of Florida. It is unlikely that any website we could link to legitimately would protect their content with a password. Q5: Can I link to copyrighted publications posted on a website?
A5: No. We cannot link to illegally published material. Only websites operated by the National Council of the BSA are allowed to publish BSA copyrighted material. Council, district and other sites that are publishing such copyrighted material are in violation of the BSA's copyright policies. External links to content that violates copyrights may be considered contributory infringement. Q6: Are editors who are members of the OA in conflict of interest?
A6: Only when they violate the core of the conflict of interest guideline: Regular editors who are Arrowmen have voluntarily disclosed their association on their userpages and on the talk page of this article. Q7: What about the lyrics to The Order of the Arrow Song?
A7: The song was written by E. Urner Goodman who died in 1980. It has been continuously published in The Order of the Arrow Handbook, a copyrighted publication. The earliest the copyright would expire is 70 years after the death of the author: 2050. How much of the song could or should be included is open to interpretation, especially given the short length. |
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Dubious claims re Freemasonry
[edit]The “History” section includes an incredible claim that the OA is uniquely influenced by Freemasonry, viz.:
The traditions and rituals of Freemasonry contributed more to the basic structure of the OA ritual than any other organization. In fact, there appears to be no known fraternal organization more faithful in form to Freemasonry than the OA.
The evidence given is scanty and is equally descriptive of numerous other organizations just within the United States. Considering that “no known fraternal organization” is a global claim, the passage is even more difficult to believe. It also may constitute original research and should be removed on that basis.
I mention this here, rather than just deleting, because someone clearly put thought and effort into this passage and may be invested in keeping it intact. I don’t wish to trigger an edit war so am stating the case here for deletion before deleting. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 18:17, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with your assessment. I would support this change. Please see my userpage for my noted COIs. Mrwoogi010✉ 21:43, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
That paragraph has been revised and changed to be historically accurate based on AO sources. Freemasonry ties in the History now have solid references with sources that come directly from the Order of the Arrow's own website. The masonic terminology is acknowledged has having been used by the Order of the Arrow prior to the 1930s. As a requirement to the OA becoming officially part of the Boy Scouts of America, this terminology was removed to avoid offending the religious groups at the time per the OA's own official history. If the OA wanted to become part of BSA it had to comply as the religious groups were a powerful partner to BSA with almost half of the chartered organizations being churches at the time. Historical context has been added to explain this and pointing to the BSA History page as both the OA and the BSA's histories are linked starting in the 1930s. This series of event point and the terms such as "Degrees", "Lodges", "rituals", "Pledge" "Fraternity", "altar", "secret" having been purposefully change point to a masonic influence that had become undesirable by the 1930s. However, the fact that the OA says "Patterned similar to the Freemasons, it was decided that each lodge would become a member of the Grand Lodge" on its First Meeting of the Grand Lodge shows that it does not shy away from its influence in the early years.[1] It is important to have a complete history of OA and not ignore the controversies pasts and present. These however have to be documented and represented fairly and accurately here with the proper context for readers unfamiliar with the subject to understand.Blazing Liberty (talk) 14:08, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
The History has been moved to History of the Order of the Arrow due to the size of the OA article exceeding 13,000 words making it hard to read. A link to the said article has been added.Blazing Liberty (talk) 13:51, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
Dubious claims re "Previously Known As"
[edit]This page needs a reference to where and when that name was changed. That is not an official change that has been communicated to active users. (talk) 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Age Range
[edit]
You reverted my addition regarding 18-20 year-old Scouts noting "no need to split". As noted in the citation, that age group is unique in that they are treated as youth for OA program purposes, but adult for Scouting America policy purposes. That seems noteworthy. Please consider undoing your revision. Delmont43 (talk) Delmont43 (talk) 20:32, 3 February 2025 (UTC)
- That page lists that for OA purposes youth are through 20 and adult is over, so if anything would say they aren't separate. "For Order of the Arrow participation (events, elections, etc.), a youth is anyone under age 21. Adults are those 21 or older." The nuance about housing status seems too minor to be worth including in the infobox, and regardless, the edit you made didn't list the difference. But if you disagree, I'd recommend starting a conversation on the article's talk page. meamemg (talk) 20:36, 3 February 2025 (UTC)
- It is not a "nuance" that in a youth program, the national officers can be adults by Scouting America definitions. If this distinction is not worthy of an infobox, then I would submit that the age range entry isn't either. I would recommend you revert your change and start a discussion on the article's talk page. Delmont43 (talk) Delmont43 (talk) 20:42, 3 February 2025 (UTC)
- Discussions like this generally should happen on the articles talk page, not my personal one, so I've moved it there. @Delmont43 . meamemg (talk) 20:49, 3 February 2025 (UTC)
- It is not a "nuance" that in a youth program, the national officers can be adults by Scouting America definitions. If this distinction is not worthy of an infobox, then I would submit that the age range entry isn't either. I would recommend you revert your change and start a discussion on the article's talk page. Delmont43 (talk) Delmont43 (talk) 20:42, 3 February 2025 (UTC)
RfC: Wimachtendienk Wingolauchsik Witahemui (WWW) in lead paragraph
[edit]The lead paragraph currently makes no mention of the previous name of the Order of the Arrow, Wimachtendienk Wingolauchsik Witahemui (WWW). This is because the name was changed (to the Order of the Arrow) more than a hundred years ago in 1924. While there is still some use of the old name, such as on lodge flaps, it is not broadly recognized. Since an edit recently added WWW into the lead paragraph I thought I’d seek other opinions on this topic. Compass128 (talk) 22:03, 28 March 2025 (UTC)
RfC: Section on “Sash and Dash”
[edit]Sash and Dash is occasionally used organizational jargon. Recently, edits have been made to add this term, as well as some information on it, to the article. The sources have quite literally no info and most of the content seems to be coming from the editors themselves. I don’t think the information is relevant and have removed it pending other opinions. At the very least there needs to be stronger sources and perhaps the section could be renamed “Membership Issues” or something similar. Compass128 (talk) 22:11, 28 March 2025 (UTC)